As an employment and Title IX attorney turned mediator, my work in Los Angeles consistently sheds light on the critical legal and policy issues shaping our daily lives. That’s why I was thrilled to once again welcome Tony Tolbert and Adam Radinsky to the Legal Lens Podcast. These two incredible individuals are at the forefront of ensuring that the vital, yet often challenging, conversation around reparations for African Americans remains central to our national, statewide, and local policy discussions. In this powerful episode, Tony and Adam, both distinguished lecturers at UCLA School of Law and co-hosts of the influential “Pay the Tab” podcast, the only podcast dedicated to advocating for Black reparations, delve into the complex landscape of reparations for African Americans in 2025 and beyond, especially under the current presidential, the Tulsa race massacre reparations that have recently captured headlines, and where we stand with reparations in California and other states.
From the alarming efforts to erase history to the groundbreaking steps taken by cities like Tulsa and the ongoing legislative efforts in California and other states,, we unpack the urgent need for truth, repair, and concrete action. Join us for a candid and eye-opening discussion that you won’t want to miss.
To hear their powerful insights firsthand, I strongly encourage you to listen to our riveting, candid, and revelatory 35-minute conversation, conveniently available on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Simplecast, and everywhere you get your podcasts for free. Here is a recap of our conversation.
Tony Tolbert and Adam Radinsky Discuss Current Presidential Administration, Reparations for African Americans in 2025, and More
For this week’s episode of the Legal Lens Podcast, I was thrilled to have returning guests and audience favorites Tony Tolbert and Adam Radinsky, both of whom teach at the UCLA School of Law and met while they were first-year students at Harvard Law School.
Tolbert and Radinsky also co-host a reparations podcast called Pay the Tab, which is currently the only podcast advocating for reparations for Black Americans. They also co-teach a reparations course at the prestigious UCLA School of Law, which is believed to be the only course of its kind in the country.
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Who is Tony Tolbert?
Tony Tolbert is many things – he’s a retired but longtime practicing attorney, a sports buff, a music aficionado, an art collector, and an advocate and activist. Just as importantly, he’s also a warm and friendly presence, which is palpable when you hear him speak.
However, he did offer a slight correction at the top of our conversation, joking that he is no longer working a staff position but is still teaching, which he finds to be exceedingly fulfilling.
“I’m retired from my staff position, thankfully,” Tolbert laughed. “I enjoyed it immensely, but I’m also enjoying not doing it. But it’s great to co-teach with my longtime dear friend Adam and to stay connected with students who give us a lot of energy and a lot of hope for the future.”
I recalled first meeting Tolbert many years ago when he was an entertainment sports law attorney, and how he would end up becoming general counsel for the World Soccer Association.
“I’m still a huge music and sports buff, so I’ve been watching a lot of concerts and still follow my Lakers and Dodgers, but as far as on the professional side, my career as an entertainment sports lawyer was fun and enjoyable and exciting,” reflected Tolbert, “but the truth is that when I put that behind me, I never looked back. I’ve really enjoyed my last almost 25 years now at UCLA Law.”
He has spent his time at UCLA Law, my Alma Mater (go Bruins!), heading the Street Law Clinic and focusing on increasing diversity, wellness, and legal education, as well as creating a more inclusive and supportive campus climate. As for his current status as an art collector? The only thing that has slowed him down has been the logistics of it all.
“I had to slow down a little because I started running out of space and started watching my dollars a little more closely,” chuckled Tolbert. “I still try to support the arts where I can. I haven’t hosted a show in a minute, but this might prompt me to put something in motion, so thank you,” he said.
In response, of course, I told him I was glad to be an inspiration to him.
Who is Adam Radinsky?
Adam Radinsky is a semi-retired public interest lawyer in the Los Angeles area who dedicates his time to hosting his own podcasts and leading civic efforts, but he does so much more than that.
For over 35 years, he led the innovative Consumer Protection Division for the City of Santa Monica. It’s worth noting that Consumer Protections have been under attack under this presidential administration. While there, he brought groundbreaking cases in fair housing, workers’ rights, and consumer protections, along with ample statewide work that has had a national impact.
“Well, like Tony [Tolbert], I’m what they call semi-retired, which means semi-working and semi-trying to find other things to do,” joked Radinsky. “I love running. I’m trying to keep the body injuries in check, which gets a little harder as we get on in age, but I enjoy being outside whenever possible. I try to travel once in a while, too, while keeping an eye on the home front,” he said.
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What Is the Current Status of Reparations for African Americans in 2025 Under the Current Presidential Administration?
When looking back at the progress made for African Americans since 2024, we discussed how hopeful things were under the Biden administration. California had just completed the work of its California Reparations Task Force, and there were a number of pending bills before the California legislature.
However, when it comes to progress under the current presidential administration, Tolbert lamented the current political climate and status of reparations in California and nationwide, “To say that the national climate is challenging would be a gross understatement. It is horrific. The campaign that the President is waging, this whole anti-diversity, equity, inclusion, and anti-woke campaign, is frankly, rooted in racism and white supremacy. There’s no getting around that.”
Tolbert offered a concrete example to illustrate the current state of reparations for slavery under the current Presidential Administration, saying, “A specific example I can think of is that the Department of Education a few months ago sent out a ‘dear colleague letter’ to college teachers across the country, basically bullying them into radically changing their programming. They demanded that colleges eliminate any racially-based programming of any nature and threatened to pull federal funding if they didn’t do that, which is a huge overreach and not supported by any court decisions or Supreme Court rulings in Affirmative Action cases. It’s basically the President and his crew looking to wreak havoc on folks of color and folks from other underrepresented communities.”
This elimination of funding has been a throughline in some of our most recent podcast episodes about the president’s controversial “One Big, Beautiful Bill” and the proposed Medicaid cuts. I highly recommend listening to these episodes for a clearer picture of the current political climate.
“It’s had a chilling effect on schools and individual teachers,” explained Tolbert. “It’s a very dangerous time, but that makes it all the more important for us to organize and speak out, right? Because we can see very clearly where this administration is headed. Another specific example is with the National Museum of African American History and Culture. That has come under attack and been completely dismantled and stripped of power in an attempt to erase history,” he said.
Radinsky also provided some insights into where we stand with reparations in 2025, and in effort to find some levity when discussing such a heavy topic, we joked that it feels like we’ve already lived through over four years since the start of this year.
“It’s a crazy time, and the masks are off right now,” said Radinsky. “The billionaires are plundering and grabbing money as fast as they can, and the policies are completely insane and illegal. It’s also motivating people back into the streets with extra energy. I’m a fan of peaceful protests as well, but there’s already some pushback. And like Tony said, when it comes to truth and education and racial justice, we have to double down. We have to stay strong and keep pushing forward because there’s an anti-truth campaign at the national level, and we’ve seen it before. It’s not like things were in a great place a year ago. It’s all very extreme right now,” he said.
However, when it comes to where to start with reparations, Radinsky had a surprisingly simple answer, saying, “Reparations start with telling the truth, right? So, the first step towards making reparations is telling the truth. We need to hold the line there and absolutely insist on being able to tell the truth, tell our true history, and there’s a reason why these guys are at the top of their campaign. Because propaganda and brainwashing have always been the American way.”
Still, for newer listeners, you might be asking yourself, What does reparations mean? Our guests provided invaluable insights to gain a better understanding of this issue.
What Are Reparations?
Reparations are actions of contrition taken specifically to correct past wrongs, typically involving compensation or other forms of redress for harm caused by injustices like slavery, colonialism, or human rights violations.
As we mentioned, the basic tenets of reparations are owning it and apologizing for it. In other words, reparations are coming to terms with and owning the truth of history.
“It starts with telling the truth and reckoning with what has happened,” said Radinsky about reparations and restitution. “Reparations are about making repairs and, first of all, compensating people who have been harmed in the form of changing the structure of society, changing our policies, and definitely paying some money as well. In the case of the United States, we have 400 years of crimes against humanity that have never been stopped or really addressed. They’re just taking different shapes and forms, and there are different modern versions going on,” he explained.
Is There Any Specific Reparations Law or Bill Nationally Being Considered by Congress?
When it comes to reparations bills and legislation that are floating around Congress, Radinsky revealed that there has been a reparations bill since 1989.
“There’s been a bill since 1989 from Congress in various forms just to study reparations,” explained Radinsky. “A few years ago, it made it out of committee. It’s now in a different form. But the bill has been there – there’s never been a question of how or whether this could be done. There’s full justification for reparations, and the legal case is there. That’s part of what we teach – it’s all just about the political will, and it feels like this issue will not go away. Because once you open up that door and people start looking and thinking about it, the arguments against reparations always fall away one by one. There is no moral argument against it, and there is no solid legal argument against it, so it won’t go away. The reality is it’s also very uncomfortable for politicians, and it’s tough to count on politicians for the answer, but there are bills pending, definitely,” he said.
Is There Any Particular Person in Congress Leading the Discussion About Reparations for African Americans in 2025 and Beyond?
As for who’s leading the charge in the space of reparations, Tolbert said that there is a group of legislators who are at the forefront of this movement.
“There’s a group of predominantly Black legislators who are leading the charge,” said Tolbert. “They’re picking up on what former Congresswoman Cory Bush introduced a couple of years ago before she was bounced out,” he said.
What Are the Tulsa Reparations?
We then discussed how great it is to hear that this conversation hasn’t gone away and that, while there may be some delays, it’s still very much at the forefront of the national discussions. In fact, we have seen these conversations gain traction on a state level, too.
One such example that we discussed was the recent Tulsa race massacre reparations that made headlines, as they have started to attempt to remedy some of the injustices of the past. We went on to discuss the kind of precedent it sets when a city like Tulsa creates reparations for a race massacre.
“In 1921, Tulsa was besieged with a massacre that was rooted in some bogus story about a young Black man who supposedly accosted a young white woman, which was some mess,” explained Tolbert as he gave background on the Tulsa massacre reparations. “The city erupted. The National Guard was brought in, and the local sheriffs and white citizens descended upon the Greenwood area of North Tulsa, which was all Black, thriving folks. They were balling out. These individuals were doctors, lawyers, and teachers with their own schools. They had their own hospital, restaurants, bowling alley, and theater. The point is they didn’t need anything from white Tulsa, and that was part of the problem. There was this thriving Black community that some white folks weren’t happy with, and they found a way to obliterate it and literally burn it to the ground. So, there has been no real recompense since, for the survivors and descendants who were displaced, impacted, and harmed by that heinous agenda – that is, until recently, because there’s been some news,” he said.
The news Tolbert is referring to is that the city of Tulsa, Oklahoma, has been reckoning with this issue and deciding to do something to remedy the injustices of the past. This has been referred to as “Road to Repair.” In many ways, Tulsa has created a road map for other cities to replicate and make amends.
“The city has sort of tinkered and toyed around with this idea to a degree under prior administrations,” reflected Tolbert. “The mayor of Tulsa, now Monroe Nichols, grew up there and is connected with a lot of folks who were impacted by the massacre, and there’s a different understanding, presumably. The mayor has created a private charitable trust called the Greenwood Trust with a goal of raising $105 million by next spring. Some of the components of the program would be to fund home ownership for descendants and provide for housing assistance, land acquisition, and land development. It is also intended to provide small business grants, educational scholarships, and to release almost 50,000 pages of historical documents related to the Tulsa Race Massacre to shine a light on what really happened and who was really at the root of it. So, those are developments within the last couple of weeks, and this is very exciting on the national front that Tulsa has frankly stepped up and created something that will have some real impact,” he explained.
Radinsky offered his own assessment of the situation, “Tony is always more diplomatic than I am, but on a recent episode of our podcast, we exposed that this was an inside job. This was a government job. The Massacre of Tulsa was not a bunch of people in white hoods running around – it was some of that, for sure, but it was a very orchestrated government operation. The city of Tulsa, the Chamber of Commerce, and the State of Oklahoma brought out the National Guard, and they were all part of this attack. So, when you’re talking about reparations, it’s not just about the harm and paying for the harm – it’s owning up to this reality.”
Radinsky also recognized that this is a “microcosm of the national reparations discussion.”
What Are Some Critiques of the ‘Road to Repair’ and Tulsa Reparations?
When it comes to whether or not the Greenwood community still exists in some form, or if there have been efforts to rebuild it, Tolbert also had some keen and sobering insights into the reality of what it will take to create reparations for African Americans in 2025 and beyond.
“Nominally, there is an organization called Justice for Greenwood that we’re connected with that has a plan of its own that was impactful in prodding the [Tulsa] mayor to do the right thing,” said Tolbert, “so there’s some momentum. But there’s a lot of lingering damage from 1921, quite frankly,” he said.
Tolbert was also candid about the critiques and where there is room for improvement.
“Some of the critiques of this ‘Road to Repair’ that Tulsa is implementing are that there’s no committed government funding, so the plan is to raise private funding through private contributions and transfers of property. While there’s a possibility of public funding, that would require the city council to approve, and there’s no guarantee that it will happen. Another critique is that it doesn’t provide for any direct payments. In the proposal itself, there’s no provision for direct payments to the two remaining survivors. One’s 111, and the other’s 110 years old, and they are still fighting for reparations. There are no direct payments to descendants either, so the city council would have to approve any public money or city-owned land that goes toward this proposal,” he explained.
Still, Tolbert was able to provide a measured assessment of where we’re at and what this progress means.
“Maybe we call it half-reparations or semi-reparations or some other term that indicates that there’s an effort of positive movement but not all the way,” said Tolbert. “So, if they were able to raise the money and provide funding for folks who have been impacted by the massacre, then that’s a victory. You know, in our minds, anything short of full reparations is just that – it’s less than, right? But we’re also of the mind that any positive momentum is a good thing, and if we can build upon that, then we can start moving things in the right direction,” he said.
Another criticism that we discussed was that the Tulsa government has yet to issue a formal apology and admission of guilt, which is a core tenet of reparations, as we have mentioned.
What is the California Reparations Task Force?
Then, we turned our attention to reparations in California in 2025, starting with the California Reparations Task Force that the government established a few years ago. They concluded their work and presented a number of recommendations.
These recommendations included some of those reparations bills in California being passed, though some were not. Radinsky shed more light on where we stand with reparations in California.
“The legislative Black Caucus has put forth a new set of bills for 2025 on reparations coming from the California Reparations Task Force report, which was a massive and thorough undertaking that laid out everything that needs to be done,” said Radinsky as he discussed a particularly important reparations bill in California that is still pending. “A few things have been done so far, but the new package of bills that they’re putting forward, including prohibiting slavery in all forms in California, are still in progress. You might say, ‘Wait a minute, why do we need that after 1865?’ But the fact is that slavery is alive and well in our prison system, and people are forced into labor. That is a very rough, rough situation,” he explained.
“This time around, they included the words enslavement or slavery in the language of the bill, where last time around they referred to involuntary servitude, which I think just confused some people,” added Tolbert.
Another reparations California bill that Radinsky discussed revolves around education, though he made a point of illustrating how these bills feed into each other.
“A big part of the current reparations discussion is like, first of all, let’s stop slavery, and then let’s talk about making repairs,” Radinsky said. “So that’s one of this bill’s priorities – college admissions for descendants of enslaved people, requiring a K through 12 curriculum that covers segregation and enslavement and discrimination, home-buying assistance for descendants of enslaved people, and more. So these are some of the leading bills in the package that they put forward. I think it’s about a dozen bills in total,” he added.
What Is the Future of Reparations for African Americans in 2025?
When it comes to what is currently unfolding and what could potentially lie ahead, Tolbert was able to provide us with some interesting insights on a national level.
“So, we have good news and other news,” said Tolbert. “The good news is that, just last week, the state of Washington became the third state in the nation to fund a study on reparations. The first was California, and the second was New York. They are exploring proposals for both the state itself and some recommendations for the federal government. The other news is that in Maryland, where the governor, Wes Moore, who’s the only Black governor in the country, actually, just vetoed a bill establishing a commission to study reparations, which is somewhat of a switch up. His rationale, which is authentic and has some truth, if we’re being honest, is that now’s not the time for another study. Now’s the time for continued action that delivers results for the people we serve. He says, ‘We know what the harms have been; we have all the information and all the data,” he said.
Do You Want to Learn More About Reparations for African Americans in 2025 and the Tulsa Reparations and Gain More Insights from Tony Tolbert and Adam Radinsky?
The conversation with Tony Tolbert and Adam Radinsky offers a crucial and timely examination of reparations for African Americans in 2025 and beyond. Their deep insights into the current political climate, the historical context of injustices like the Tulsa Race Massacre, and the ongoing efforts in California and other states highlight both the immense challenges and the persistent hope for progress. It’s clear that while the path to full reparations is complex, the dedication of individuals like Tony and Adam, who are actively shaping this discourse on their innovative podcast, Pay the Tab, is vital. This episode underscores that continuing to push for truth, accountability, and repair is not just a historical imperative but a pressing contemporary need.
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